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Issues of "Netiquette" abound in this milleneum's technological classroom. Have today's students lost (or been neglected in their education) basic decorum in letter writing skills?
The following thoughts have been lifted/borrowed (see full citation at the end of the article) from the wonderful teaching blog by Michael Leddy: "Orange Crate Art" and can be read in full at the following address here. It has to do, of course, with E-mail etiquette, a topic that I am finding, more and more, a real necessity for incoming freshmen students. In particular is how to effictively write a professor. I generally end up devoting an entire class period each semester to this topic. Thanks Michael - from now on, I'll probably just assign this article as a reading! . . .
...How to e-mail a professor (an article by Michael Leddy)
I've read enough e-mails to know that many college students could benefit from some guidelines for writing an e-mail to a professor. Here they are:
Write from your college or university e-mail account. That immediately lets your professor see that your e-mail is legitimate and not spam. The cryptic or cutesy or salacious personal e-mail address that might be okay when you send an e-mail to a friend is not appropriate when you're writing to a professor.
Include the course number in your subject line. "Question about 3009 assignment" is clear and sounds genuine, while "a question" looks like spam. "Question about English assignment" or "question about assignment," without identifying the class you're in, may leave your professor with the chore of figuring that out. For someone teaching large lecture classes, that might mean reading through hundreds of names on rosters. But even for a professor with smaller classes, it's a drag to get an e-mail that merely says "I'm in your English class and need the assignment." All your English professor's classes are English classes; she or he still needs to know which one is yours.
Consider, in light of this advice, the following examples:
An e-mail from "qtpie2005" with the subject line "question."
An e-mail from an university account with the subject line "question about English 2011 essay."
Which one looks legitimate? Which one looks like spam?
Think about what you're saying. Most students are not accustomed to writing to their professors. Here are some ways to do it well:
Choose an appropriate greeting. "Hi/Hello Professor [Blank]" is always appropriate. Substitute "Dear" and you've ended up writing a letter; leave out "Hi" and your tone is too brusque.
Avoid rote apologies for missing class. Most professors are tired of hearing those standard apologies and acts of contrition. If you missed class because of some especially serious or sad circumstances, it might be better to mention that in person than in an e-mail.
Ask politely. "Could you e-mail me the page numbers for the next reading? Thanks!" is a lot better than "I need the assignment."
Proofread what you've written. You want your e-mail to show you in the best possible light.
Sign with your full name, course number, and meeting time.
English 3703, MWF 10:00
Signing is an obvious courtesy, and it eliminates the need for stilted self-identification ("I am a student in your such-and-such class").
One don't, and one last do:
Don't send unexpected attachments. It's bad form. Attaching an essay with a request that your professor look it over is very bad form. Arrange to meet your professor during office hours or by appointment instead. It's especially bad form to send an e-mail that says "I won't be in class today," with a paper or some other coursework attached. Think about it: Your professor is supposed to print out your essay because you're not coming to class?
When you get a reply, say thanks. Just hit Reply and say "Thanks," or a little bit more if that's appropriate. The old subject line (which will now have a "Re:" in front) will make the context clear. I don't think that you need to include a greeting with a short reply, at least not if you refer to your professor in your reply. And you don't need to identify yourself by course number and meeting time again.
Many e-mail messages end up never reaching their intended recipients, for reasons of human and technological error, so it's always appropriate to acknowledge that someone's message got through. It's also plain courtesy to say thanks. (Your professor will remember it too.) When you reply, you should delete almost everything of your professor's reply (quoting everything is rarely appropriate in e-mail). Leave just enough to make the original context clear.
So what would a good e-mail to a professor look like?
Hi Professor Leddy,
I'm working on my essay on William Carlos Williams and I'm not sure what to make of the last stanza of "Spring and All." I'm stuck trying to figure out what "It" is. Do you have a suggestion? Thanks!
Eng 3703, MWF 10:00
And a subsequent note of thanks:
> "It" is most likely spring, or life itself. But have you
> looked up "quicken"? That'll probably make
> "It" much clearer.
It sure did. Thanks for your help, Professor.
Ms. Simpson didn't contribute to class discussions (her pacifier got in the way), but other than that, she did very well in the class. And she wrote terrific e-mails.
My one purpose in writing these guidelines was to help college students write to their professors with greater ease and maturity and a better sense of audience (instead of "i am a student in your class"). They're guidelines for writing to a professor, any professor, in the absence of other guidelines. And they're meant to keep the e-mailer in the high esteem of any professor to whom he or she is writing.
Most of the reasoning behind the guidelines is omitted for concision. But I'll elaborate a little here. Why, for instance, write from a university account? A professor filtering spam will almost certainly also have a filter to okay mail from addresses from her or his "edu." So if you want your mail to get through, an "edu" account is a smart choice. Many schools require students to use those accounts for official school business already. Writing from a "professional" address is smart practice for the future too. (I always say something when I see a tacky or juvenile e-mail address on an otherwise polished student résumé.)
Why say "Hi/Hello Professor [Blank]?" Well, what should a student call a professor? Some people like "Doctor"; some don't. Some people don't have a doctorate. Some people don't explain any of that to students. There was a great piece in the Chronicle about this subject not long ago--"What Should We Call the Professor?" Professor, in the absence of any other guidelines, seems like a good choice.
Having received many telegraphic one-sentence e-mails, often with no greeting, no thank-you, and no signature, I find them weirdly depersonalized: "I need the assignment." I do think a question is better, better even than a polite "Please send the assignment," because the question is more conversational, more human. (But if a student e-mails me and says "I need the assignment," I send it!)
Why sign with your name, class, and meeting time? It's a courtesy, yes, but it also avoids the awkward "My name is . . . , and I am a student in your such-and-such class," all of which is taken care of in the signature. It occurs to me that "My name is . . . , and I am a student in . . ." is telling evidence of the unfamiliarity of e-mail as a way for students to communicate with professors.
I appreciate the point several commenters have made about a follow-up thank-you being unneeded. Still, a lot of e-mail doesn't get through, and the follow-up, to my mind, closes the loop. Many people do a follow-up by using the subject line to say thanks, often followed by the abbreviation "eom" (end of message). That seemed to me too arcane to recommend. But I do like the idea of closing the loop by saying yes, I got it, thanks.
I hope that this post leads to much more talking on the part of professors and students about communicating by e-mail. All reports from the business world point to enormous problems of clarity, correctness, and decorum with e-mail writing. Maybe things can start to go better in college.
More useful stuff for students:
» From a freshman: Five tips for success in college
» Getting organized with simple tools: Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
» A good place to study
» Homework-eating dogs, and how to avoid them
» How to do well on an exam
» How to talk to a professor
Source: Leddy, Michael. "How to E-mail a Professor." Orange Crate Art. 23 June 2006 [http://mleddy.blogspot.com/2005/01/how-to-e-mail-professor.html].
Posted by lhobbs at August 29, 2006 05:49 PM
Yes, this looks really good. I get some silly looking e-mail. Here's one I liked:
subject:Hi!! This is Jaeho^^
How are you, Kevin?? The weather is getting hotter.
First of all, i'd like to say, "Thank you so much". Owing to you, i had a good experience and useful time, not to mention fun.
Do you think so like me? ^^
Frankly speaking, at first, i don't feel like going there, because i was afraid of speaking English in front of native speakers.
However i realized that it was a my mistake to think like that, after finishing Kotesol Conference. Moreover, i was proud of myself, even though my task was trivial.
I could observe some of the presentations and meet some of the people who are going to Hoseo University. I regret that i didn't ask their phone number or e-mail address. haha^^v it's joking.
Anyway thank you again.
Kevin, i took a lot of your pictures when you were in front of room with your associates but most of the pictures didn't turn out. sorry about that~~ i wanted to have given nice pictures for you....
However i enveloped some of the pictures with e-mail.
Have a good night!!!
Posted by: Kevin Landry at June 23, 2006 11:14 PM
Note from Lee:
Kevin, thanks for sharing that. I have gotten quite a few notes such as that over the years, especially during the ones that I taught ESL overseas. It's not unusual nowadays to see self-proclaimed professionals who say they are trained as ESL teachers that write in a similar way over on ESL-Jobs-Forum. Remember, these are the same groups of people who sometimes complain about non-native speaker job discrimination (because they feel that their own use of the English language is flawless).
Posted by: Lee at June 24, 2006 10:37 AM
Thanks for the article (from the ESL Forum). I kept remarking, "just what I have been saying" as I was reading it.
As I am already on this page, thought it would be easier to reply from here. Thanks again. Appreciate it.
Posted by: sumisan9 at July 24, 2006 01:00 PM
Note from Lee:
Hi Sumisan! Thanks and I'm glad you found the post helpful. Be sure to visit Michael Leddy's site for more advice on teacher-student issues.
Posted by: Lee at July 25, 2006 12:46 AM
Hi Professor Hobbs!
I found your article very interesting and I am sure students don't give a second thought to what they write, and sometimes they may just forget who they are sending it to. I am guilty of that myself and I know that I could improve my own e-mails by just reminding myself who I am writing to. Also it is a good idea to state your course and section along with your name....anything to make life just a little bit easier!! Thanks for the advice!
Posted by: CarrieB at September 5, 2006 09:57 AM
I did not realise that when ending an email you should sign your name, along with your class section and time of day in which the class takes place. I learned to not put your name and those descriptions in the body of your email. Thank you for making that clear to me. I will work on this area.
Posted by: Katie M. at September 5, 2006 12:39 PM
I can relate to this article. I know that I frequently forget to put the date, and section of the class i am emailing about.
Have a good day!!
Posted by: Ashley C. at September 5, 2006 12:53 PM
Hi Professor Hobbs,
After reading this article I realize that when writing to professors, I tend to send short sentences and ask more for favors than asking questions. I never really thought of what I was doing as impersonal but after reading this article I understand why it would be better to ask questions rather than stating my need for something.
Have a good day,
Posted by: Andrea N. at September 5, 2006 04:02 PM
I usually do note my name, class, section, and times in my e-mails sent. I usually don't say "hi", and I never reply letting my proffesor know that I recieved their mail. I could improve on all of these items.
Posted by: Dawn L. at September 5, 2006 05:24 PM
A few of the things that I never even considered when I am e-mailing a professor is to make sure to leave my class and section number in the e-mail. I never thought about how much of a pain that must be to go through class rosters to find out who they are talking to and what exactly they are talking about. Just doing something as simple as writing the class and section number will save the professor a lot of time.
Secondly, I consider myself a friendly person so I found it alarming that I never send a little "thank you" back to the professor after they give me the information that I requested. A simple gesture like this would really be appreciated by a professor who just did you a favor.
Posted by: Cody M at September 5, 2006 06:14 PM
Hello Dr. Hobbs. This is Nick Logue from your English 202 class. I feel a good way that email could be improved is to get rid of junk mail. My email gets so much junk mail from Iup and other places that it takes me forever to figure out which emails do i really want to read.
nick logue-english 202
Posted by: Nick Logue at September 6, 2006 10:42 AM
After reading this article, I realized in order to improve my emails to my professors I need to start signing with my full name, course number, and meeting time.
Posted by: Angie F. at September 6, 2006 10:56 AM
Reading this article was very beneficial to me, especially in the area of subject lines and greetings. According to this article, my subject and greeting lines have been incorrect but all other aspects of my emails have been professional in nature. Students who read this information could definetly benefit in their future emails.
Posted by: Rich L. at September 6, 2006 11:27 AM
After reading the article about students not being about to write emails correctly. I realized that I don't sign my emails the correct way so the professor recognized me correctly. I don't use my class/section/time at the end of my email. Also, sometimes I use the internet "slang" with such words as "cuz" and "u". But I have always start my emails with "Dear Professor Blank" and at the end of the email tell the professor Thank You for Your Help.
Thanks, Nicole W.
Posted by: Nicole W. at September 6, 2006 12:18 PM
From this blog I have learned to be more specific about which Class/Section I am in. Instead of saying "I am in this class or section" I will just put that information in my signature.
Posted by: Chris D at September 6, 2006 12:27 PM
When I look over some of the past emails I've sent out, I see that I usually send my emails exactly how it says to do so in this article. I think it's really good advice because it's very appropriate to send your professors professional emails. The only area I think I could immprove on would be to remember saying hello and thanks. Sometimes I tend to rush when I type.
Posted by: Laurisa Jackson at September 6, 2006 12:30 PM
I personally enjoyed reading the article, because I often am unsure of what is correct etiquette when it comes to emailing a professor. This article would have greatly helped me yesterday when emailing. I find myself forgetful of writing my class name, section and time; when emailing. I could greatly improve on remembering to add that simply to the end of my emails. It would help the professor along with the response I get.
Posted by: Heather H. at September 6, 2006 01:42 PM
I use to think I knew how to e-mail Professors properly, but after reading this article my eyes have been opened. Looking at past e-mails I would just start off by putting the professor’s name at the top. I have also done the “Hi my name is……and I am in your class.” It also makes sense to put my course number and class time in the e-mail. There have been a couple times when I have e-mailed professors and never got a reply and I end up worrying whether or not they received my e-mail. Knowing I will receive some kind of reply means less wondering if the e-mail was received.
Posted by: Michelle W. at September 6, 2006 02:50 PM
A way that I can improve my emails is always putting the class name, course number, and section. Also by mmaking the subject of the letter clear, so that the teacher knows that the mail isnt junk or spam. It is also important to always start off with the proper greeting as well as closing of the email.
Posted by: Sophia. W at September 6, 2006 03:52 PM
I'll be sure to keep this article in mind the next time I write an email. Thanks!
Posted by: Whitney W at September 6, 2006 04:07 PM
Hello Professor Hobbs,
After reading the article I thought about where i need to improve. I thought that I write decent emails. I tend to not capitalize "I" instead I use i . I could also use to write the meeting time at the bottom after i sign my name and section number.
engl 202 sec 027 t/tr 9:45-11:15
Posted by: Danny D. at September 6, 2006 04:27 PM
After reading this article I learned that I should always include my course number and probably my section number in the subject line of the e-mails that I send to professors so that they know what they are getting before they open it up. This article would defiantly be a good piece of advice for every college freshmen to have; I know I wish I would have had it then.
Posted by: Matt G. at September 6, 2006 04:58 PM
I beleive that i could improve my wiriting skills in terms of letters. I never knew that using a, "Hi" rather than "Dear" was appropriate. Reading this blog definately beat it into my head that i should always have my full name and section number when e-mailing a professor. I won't forget that rule anytime soon.
T/TH 9:45 AM
Posted by: Matt R at September 6, 2006 05:05 PM
Hi Professor Hobbs.
Some key points that I could improve on would be including a subject. I never really thought about the point of a professor having to go through everyone in their courses just to find out who the person is and what class they're actually in. I also learned how to address professors. Sometimes it's a little blurry whether professors are to be titled "Dr." or not, but by using the word "professor," it covers all situations. Finally, I can improve upon putting my name, course number, section number, and the assignment in question, if needed. All in all This article was a rather interesting one. I wish I would have had it as a freshman because it would helped me out a lot!
ENGL 202.023 TR
Posted by: Amber B. at September 6, 2006 05:10 PM
Two things I didn't do the last time I emailed a proffesor was say Hi, and give a thanks reply back to show the proffesor that I received the email.
Posted by: Brian B. at September 6, 2006 05:38 PM
I am actually very glad that this reading was assigned. Even as I type this, I wonder if I should have given a greeting; however, since this is a "blog", I decided not to. This article brings up information and examples of some of the tactics I have used in the past to email a professor, such as not including my course (or even class) number in the subject line.
I also, did not know that when sending an email you should just give your information as a signature. This information is a great source of information to make communication better.
Posted by: Amber K. at September 6, 2006 05:39 PM
The article has some good points. Some students do need to become more professional. There are also students that are doing just fine. Why aren't they getting the same attention?
Posted by: marlene B at September 6, 2006 07:34 PM
Hi Professor Hobbs,
After reading through this I realized that there were several things that I should change about how I write my emails. I feel that I should be more personable in them by using "hi" and also by saying things such as "thanks!". I also agree that I should be more specific when sending out emails by putting exactly what I need to ask in the byline. Thanks for showing me what I can afford to make changes on.
Posted by: Lauren S. at September 6, 2006 08:06 PM
The one area I could improve on in my emails is leaving writing the date and my class information. Usually I'm in a rush to get things done, but not only that a lot of times I don't even know what day it is. I think that writing the date on my emails would help me be more aware of time and make my emails look more professional. I almost never write my class information down. This I could use some great improvement on.
Posted by: Sam H. at September 6, 2006 08:36 PM
The main problem i have when emailing a teacher is that i forget its my teacher, i always use abbrevations and slang. The main thing i have to do is focus on who i am writing too.
Posted by: Scott Moore at September 6, 2006 08:41 PM
I can relate to how weird it is to send messages and have absolutly no clue as to where it came from or as to what it was for because of either abstract titles, or a personal e-mail address. I admit I send some to my advisor from my personal address but that is the one I told him I check the most. I should use the campus e-mail address but I rarely check it. But I must say, i will take pointers and fix up some common mistakes.
Posted by: Ian at September 6, 2006 09:38 PM
Interesting article. One thing that I suppose I could start doing based on this article is using the title 'professor' for any instructor of whose degree level I am not sure. I frequently have forgotten to check the syllabus for this information and embarassingly used 'Mr.' instead of 'Dr.' or vice versa.
Posted by: Vince W. at September 6, 2006 09:40 PM
I think that the article had several good points. I could improve my own emails by putting my class, section number, and time along with my name at the end of the email.
Posted by: Courtney P. at September 6, 2006 09:56 PM
I have recently written emails to my professors without the course number in the subject line. Usually i would just include it in the signature, but i could see that it would be better to include it in the subject line. I could also add the meeting time (TH 8:00am) to my email. One last thing that i could do is reply with a "Thanks" to an email to let my professor know that i recieved it and that it helped me out.
Posted by: Alysha G. at September 6, 2006 10:00 PM
I, like many students, have multiple e-mail addresses. Using Microsoft Outlook to organize these addresses makes things much easier but I find myself constantly forgetting to change the "from" section of my e-mails. In doing this, my e-mails get sent from one of my many accounts and appears to be spam to most e-mail filters. Since this has happened on more than one occasion, I find myself checking it more than once. Most of the time, it's the first thing I do when I'm composing an e-mail.
Posted by: Matthew K at September 6, 2006 10:25 PM
Although when emailing a professor I try to use the greatest amount of etiquette. I still do so only after carefully checking my email numerous times. I wish this wasn't so, and I could veer away from using the slang jargon that I use while emailing my friends. This is an annoying characteristic that I am trying to change. Hopefully now that I realize that I am doing this, checking my etiquette will improve, and I will not have to continually check myself.
Posted by: Adam V. at September 6, 2006 10:31 PM
After looking at my own e-mails, I noticed one or two things I could improve on. The key points that I didn't do before were signing my full name, course number, and meeting time. Also, I need to start putting my course number on the subject line. I did not realize how many students a professor can have in a semester and also, how much smoother it can make the process. Especially, when you put the course number on the subject line because the professor can now know exactly what course he needs to look at. Overall, I thought this had many good points and it helped me better understand the e-mailing process.
Posted by: Jake M at September 6, 2006 11:03 PM
Whenever I am sending e-mails to professors I am often forgetting who I am e-mailing. I know one thing that I can improve on is how formal the e-mail is, such as; proper grammar and punctuation. I often type out the e-mail like I am chatting on AOL or sending a message on TheFacebook. That is one thing that I can definitely work on while e-mailing a professor.
Posted by: Miki B at September 6, 2006 11:35 PM
I agree that some students are unaware of how to adress a professor, even more so in an email. This article is a great help to those who may have not known their was EVEN a proper edicate to e-mailing.
Though I do not think that because of the technological age that students are becoming less educated on formality. Just a mear comfort zone that may leave the sender of the email in a false sence of informality. It's not that they don't know how. They are just so used to using emails informally.
Posted by: Ace at September 6, 2006 11:39 PM
I believe that Michael Leddy’s article on e-mail etiquette was very informative and helpful. Also, he highlighted many points in writing that can be overlooked, such as structure and simply being courteous. I personally need to improve on one major detail when writing e-mails which is grammar.
Posted by: Jennifer T. at September 6, 2006 11:39 PM
After reading your blog, I seem to understand a little better as to why it's important to have "netiquette." I know one of the things I do not do when I write emails is put my class and section number after my name. I'm also a bit scratchy on my grammar when it comes to email. I'm so used to just writing people in the way I would talk to them face to face. I never felt that emails needed to be formal. It is more of a quick use of communication. I suppose now I can brush up on my skills, I am college student. I liked the pointers. Thanks.
Posted by: Ashley O. at September 6, 2006 11:44 PM
Writing an e-mail to a professor is more important than a student may think. The context of an e-mail sends a lasting impression of the student to the professor. When writing an e-mail to a professor that is grammatically correct, it shows professionalism on the students behalf. It also is respectful to send a professional e-mail to your professor. E-mail is a great way to communicate with your professor, but in some cases it is inappropriate to send a message through e-mail and is better to make a phone call or set up an appointment to meet with your professor.
Posted by: Bethany Peck at September 6, 2006 11:53 PM
When writing my next email, I need to make sure to include my section number. Also, I should send a follow-up email.
Posted by: Brittany M. at September 6, 2006 11:57 PM
Dear Professor Hobbs,
I feel I can take a few things out of this article next time I need to E-mail a professor. First, I need to work on using proper subject titles to avoid the mistake of the e-mail being viewed as spam. Using a proper greeting would be a good idea as well. Finally, when I get a response it wouldn't hurt for me to send a thank you e-mail in response next time.
-Bryan M. Eng. 202 023
Posted by: Bryan M at September 7, 2006 12:05 AM
I know there are definate things I could improve on while writing e-mails to professors. For starters, I never usually pay attention to punctuation. I never capatilize beginnings of sentances or I's. I also am a big fan of the "...", to a ridiculous degree. This blog made me realize that I have many things I need to improve on. I juts need to grow up a bit!
Posted by: Britain.M at September 7, 2006 01:24 AM
The article was pretty interesting. The article discussed a problem that most students and professors face everyday. Students email professors like they were fellow friends and use computer language versus proper English. But, I think professors should set a standard and let their students know what they expect if the student was to email the professor. The whole emailing assignments, it should never be done, unless the professor directly told the student to do it. The article discussed how to inform the professor of who the student is, which makes sense.
Posted by: Nathan P at September 7, 2006 09:12 AM
There are alot of things i could work on with writting e-mails to make then sound more professional. Most of all i should probably work on remembering to enter my class and section number which is often forgotten
Posted by: Nathan L at September 7, 2006 09:25 AM
September 6, 2006 ENGL 202 023
Hello Professor Hobbs,
I read through the article online and came up with a few things that I could do to improve my emails to my professors on campus. I know in the past I have always addressed my professors by using "Dear' and now it is more proper to user "Hello or Hi" and that way it does not sound like you are writing a letter that is personal. If I miss a class there is usually a death or family emergency and I tell them in advance if at all possible, but I would never apologize for something that I have no control over, and if I had to I would do it in person and not in an email. I always give an advanced warning if I am going to be sending attachments to professors through emails. Other than those few things, I feel I am pretty set when it comes to emailing professors about assignments. Thank you for your time.
Valerie W. ENGL 202 023 TR 8-9:30
Posted by: Valerie W. at September 7, 2006 07:26 PM
After reviewing all my emails to my professors in the past, I realized that my mistake was how I began the email. I always started it by saying..."Hi!"...now I know that that's unacceptable and will use the appropiate heading.
Posted by: Jackie DePietro at September 8, 2006 10:31 AM
The one thing that I notice I do wrong while writing to a professor is that I always would say Dear Dr. so and so. I wasn't thinking that not all professor have their doctorate degree. I would also sometimes fail to write the section of my class. I would assume that if I gave my name and class then they would know exactly what secton I was in.
Posted by: Sylvia G at September 8, 2006 08:08 PM
September 6, 2006
Hello Professor Hobbs,
I read through the article online and came up with a few things that I could do to improve my emails to my professors on campus. I know in the past I have always addressed my professors by using "Dear' and now it is more proper to user "Hello or Hi" and that way it does not sound like you are writing a letter that is personal. If I miss a class there is usually a death or family emergency and I tell them in advance if at all possible, but I would never apologize for something that I have no control over, and if I had to I would do it in person and not in an email. I always give an advanced warning if I am going to be sending attachments to professors through emails. Other than those few things, I feel I am pretty set when it comes to emailing professors about assignments.
Thank you for your time.
ENGL 202 023 TR 8-9:30
Posted by: Valerie W. ENGL 202 023 at September 9, 2006 05:07 PM
I noticed for me to improve my emails, one thing I should improve is to start writing in complete sentences.
Posted by: Nick L at September 11, 2006 10:19 AM
*NOTE* Deadline for this assignment has passed. Comments are no longer being accepted for this exercise.
Posted by: Lee at September 20, 2006 11:16 PM
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